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Author Topic: Scientology on TV  (Read 58741 times)
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« on: March 24, 2009, 03:20:38 AM »

A German TV show did an item on scientology.
Here is the transcript in English.

                               PART ONE

Kerner: Good evening and welcome to all of you!

The film start of Tom Cruise's "Operation Valkyrie"and the mysterious circumstances surrounding the death of John Travolta's son have brought the discussion on Scientology more to the forefront again, in recent times. Is this actually a sort of threat for our society, is it a dangerous cult or is it, let's say, a harmless faith community? What lies behind Scientology? My guests know. Example given the journalist Philip Mattheis who infiltrated Scientology for 10 days in a self-test. I'm also looking forward to talk to the jorunalist-expert, to the journalist and cult-expert Frank Nordhausen, I'm going to talk to Wilfried Handl, who left Scientology after 28 years having been in there, including in leading positions, I welcome religious scientist Dr. Gerhard Willms and I'm looking forward to talking to Dr. G?nther Beckstein, bavarian interior minister -formerly- and also former minister president. Welcome to all of you!


Kerner: And, as ought to be done, we also invited Scientologists to take part in our show. Given the free choice to either answer our questions or talk to us outside or even live, inside this studio, they decided against it. This interview, which had been an appointment, was cancelled by them a few hours before. And, as you see, there's also an empty seat here at the studio, where the spokesperson or even the head of Scientology Germany was supposed to be seated. The seat is empty, maybe they'll come, but judging from our previous experience, the probability is pretty low. But this doesn't stop us from discussing the mystery of Scientology.

[video segment:] Scientology- the association, which is calling itself a church, is classified as a cult by the Office for Protection of the Constitution and has been under observation since 1997.
Celebration in Berlin- solemn opening of the german central of Scientology at the beginning of 2007. At the center of it there is Dianetics, the teaching by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. According to Hubbard, humanity was brought to earth 75 million years ago by a galactic ruler, put into volcanoes and then blown up by hidrogen bombs. Who wants to redeem the souls of the dead, has to undergo a sort of "brainwashing".
[Scientology Video:] "Trust. Trust. Trust."
Scientology has magic attraction in Hollywood too. Its most famous adherent is Tom Cruise. In Germany there are about 6000 followers of Scientology. The organization tries to recruit members by using info-tables and leaflets. Meanwhile, resistance builds up on the internet. The opponents of Scientology mobilize forces.
[Anons:] "No Scientology! No Scientology!"
[Anon Video: "We have therefore decided that your organization should be destroyed"]

Kerner: This doesn't sound too peaceful either, so let's dare to take on the topic now. Mr. Handl, you were a Scientologist, for 28 years, would you explain to us why noone followed up on our invitation to discuss with us here?

Handl: I just want to say, there's a reasoning behind this... maybe a short explanation: You can't talk to Scientologists as such, as if you'd say: "Well, there is Scientologist X and I would like to talk to him" this doesn't happen. So, if you'd try this, he would immediatley go to the so-called Office of Special Affairs, which is Ms. Sabine Weber, Vice-President of Scientology and this Office of Special Affairs is, if you like to put it this way, Scientology's intelligence agency, this means you are only able to meet the same one, two, three people, with which you could talk. And let me say, I can understand well, so to speak, from Scientology's perspective, that they don't do this, they certainly have... if you had invited three representatives, three members of this scientologic intelligence agency, then they would be here.

Kerner: Ok, but we simply intended to let them have their say and have an open discussion. And to me this of course does create a certain impression, when someone isn't interested in talking, with fair treatment guaranteed, that he has to hide something.

Handl: Yes, but that's not possible at all with Scientologists. Scientologists... every Scientologist has the virtual duty to report it immediately at this Office of...

Kerner: Why, no, they can report it, I'd have no problem with this, but they can come here anyway.

Handl: No, sadly that's impossible with Scientologists.

Kerner: So... just to state this once more, at the beginning we were under the impression -and we've been in contact with them for weeks- that they are ready for a discussion, then the phone conversations slightly changed, in style, also in tone, it all became a bit more brisk and a bit more strange, then there were demands, which became increasingly unrealistic. So, whatever we did, whenever you had just come to an agreement, along came the next demand to make it impossible again. Is this some sort of trick?

Handl: Yes, that's the strategy. Well, you may not forget one thing: Well, Scientology considers journalists in general to be enemies and of course there's a corresponding way of acting and as long as [you] hadn't allowed Scientology to do a virtual propaganda show...

Kerner: Well, one can't go that far, I'm very sorry, that we can't...

Handl: You may not forget, Scientology thinks completely different, they apply different standards...

Kerner: And we're trying to approach that way of thought, to understand what happens there and we are very interested in hearing your reports from the 28 years that you have spent in Scientology. Mr. Beckstein, if one was to try to describe Scientology -I don't want to do a quizshow with you- but when the alternatives are: Church, cult, economic corporation or political organization, which one would you consider to be correct?

Beckstein: I'm convinced that this is an economic corporation, which is cloaked as a church and which is massively aiming for the goal of gaining economic and political power. All this not with a human conception of a self-determined, free human being, who could face a transparent discussion -our previous topic- in which you could say: "What is Scientology in detail? What are you doing?" and which is also ready to face public and transparent criticism, but it is about a system and this system wants another sort of human, the system of scientology does indeed plan for those that have been cleared to have all the rights and all the others are considered to be criminal and have no rights at all. And this was the reason that I considered it appropriate, in my function as interior minister back then, to state: This is an entirely different human conception from that of the constitution, it is a totalitarian organization, so it has to be under observation by the Office for the Protection of the Constitution.

Kerner: Alright. That is happening since 1997. It didn't come to a ban however, this could be considered a sign as well, maybe the procedures for a ban aren't welcome, because the danger would be too large that it wouldn't pass through the appropriate courts.

Beckstein: Our democracy is so generous and wide, that also organizations, which violate the constitution are allowed. This can be seen by the existence of extreme right-wing and left-wing parties, which don't get banned.
A ban would prerequesite, that the organization fights in an agressive militant manner against the free democratic basic order. In particular acts of violence. But i have no knowledge of any acts of violence from Scientology.

Kerner: If any, then rather inwards than outwards.

Beckstein: That massive coercion takes place internally is something which my colleagues had told me, which is why i had initiated an investigation a few years ago, but it didn't come this far.

Kerner: We have heard several terms now. "Clear" is something, which will be explained later in the show. This is a status, that can be achieved by doing certain courses.
The former bavarian prime minister is innately a lawyer. You formulate this with caution but of course also well-informed and you say, that Scientology is not a church.
We have Dr. Willms as a guest. The man is a sociologist of religion and you say, it is a religion. How do you come to this conclusion?

Willms: For once the notion "sect" is not being used anymore in the sociology of religion. It simply doesn't exist anymore. If it is being used, then only in spoken quotes. We talk about "new religious movements" in general and would put Scientology in this category, too.

Kerner: Who did use the notion "sect"? Did our christian churches rather use this notion?

Willms: It has gained popularity through its application by the christian churches. It is in principle older and existed already in the ancient world. This was about the philosophical schools. Someonewho followed a different philosophical school was a sectarian, was part of a sect as it was called at that time already. It has become popular in the understanding of christian churches.

Kerner: Would you say, that there is too much concern about Scientology? There are just a few thousand Scientologists. Calculated only 0.07 % of the population in Germany, if the numbers are correct?

Willms: Yes, i would definitively say that.

Kerner: You are not a Scientologist yourself?

Willms: No.

Kerner: Alright. I mean, one can openly ask that.

Willms: Yes and i would also openly tell you so, if i were a Scientologist.

Handl: Could you imagine being one?

Willms: No. Well, i have read all of Hubbard's literature and have been asked before, if i wouldn't be tempted to give it a try. But to be honest, i am not tempted.

Nordhausen: Why do you even concern yourself with Scientology as a scholar of religion? Scientology has nothing to do with religion after all?

Willms: You may see it like that. There are enough religious elements in Scientology, so that religious scholars call it a religion. There are ideas of reincarnation and similar things, which are part of it. There is a (?berpositiver?) set of beliefs. How seriously it is then taken in general by individual persons is something we are not concerned with. There are simply these (?berpositive) elements of reincarnation and so forth.

Kerner: Something which a lot of people are wondering about is that you can become especially "good" in Scientology. "Clear" in particular, if you spend a lot of money. How can that be? Because we have rather the conception, that you can not buy spiritual salvation. Apart from church tax. But you cannot purchase salvation itself.

Willms: Well I don't know exactly, why it has to cost that much. But to think that something can't be a religion, when it does business is a misconception typical of continental europe. In America, every religion has to make money to survive as a religion,

Kerner: As their is no church tax, no automatic one.

Willms: Exactly, because there doesn't exist what we have here. A comparatively close connection, even though we have an official separation of state and church of course. But you know who collects the church tax. It's the state and the churches of course do profit very substantially from this system and because of this they still have this perspective of rulership.

Kerner: Ok, so you would say, Scientology is a church? A religion?

Willms: Well, the term isn't protected. I mean, they do call themselves a church. As a religious scientist, I would say, that it's a little senseless to use the term "church" outside of christianity. But you can't prevent them from doing it.

Kerner. Ok, with the arguments that you have named. Mr. Handl who was a member for 28 years, says: "If Scientology is a church, the mafia is a church too." What makes you think that?

Handl: Basically, when you take a look at it, without intending to step on the mafia's toes, but in sicily, I would say, the mafia is indeed considered to be something, which shapes the social surroundings, where you aren't confronted with drug labortatories or drug carriers non-stop, but that, which is wanted by part of the population. And I don't want to step on the sicilians' toes either. And when you take a look at Scientology, you have to look at the entire history. L. Ron Hubbard is the founder of Scientology and registered three churches in 1954. While we're at it, I have to add that this is incredibly easy in America. You have to make a difference between Europe and America. In America, everyone who claims to be a church or a religion, may do so. Under the same abbreviation, COS, as in Church of Scientology, there is also the Church of Satan. That's no problem if you say, Satan is my god, I'll go register myself as a church and receive tax exemption. This means, that it works incredibly easy. And with this, not to paint a wrong picture of the mafia, that is basically the comparison.

Kerner: Oh well, but you also intend the comparison as a statement to the effect of: It is a criminal organization.

Handl: I would say: Extremely criminal. Concerning the individual individually. For me the vital point is that the individual has no possibility of self-development. This is especially extreme of course in the case of youths, with children, especially with children of Scientologists. They are being forced into one conception, of course one could remark at this point that this happens in other places too. True, but not entirely. There, in Scientology, you don't stand a chance, you have no possibility. The only possibility, if you say: "I part ways with Scientology", it also means that you part ways with your parents, your siblings, you are not allowed to have any more contact.

Kerner: Mr. Beckstein, you are known to be someone who has always been very candid about his opinion in this matter.
Have you ever been threatened by them? Have you ever felt persecuted by them?

Beckstein: It is obvious that there is the goal of leading the dispute in an offensive manner. Something, that I felt uneasy about, was to be portrayed as a perpetrator of violence against the "good" religion, in full page ads in american newspapers. Of course the question of "legal proceedings" time and again becomes important when dealing with Scientology. You get quickly threatened with lawsuits, which may also lead to economic problems if there are several of them. There never was an immediate physical threat to me.

Kerner: Mr. Nordhausen, you are an expert on Scientology, you are no Scientologist and you are dealing with the topic in a very critical fashion. Could you please explain to us the meaning of these terms? Could you explain to me what "clear" means?

Nordhausen: "Clear" is supposed to mean that you are a completely freed human, which is freed from all resistances and who example given isn't susceptible to a cold as Hubbard has written. Some also believe that you can't get cancer anymore afterwards and other similar beliefs and this is certainly something which makes this attractive.

Kerner: Conversely speaking, is a cold always a sign, that I'm not entirely clear yet?

Nordhausen: Well, I wouldn't look at it this way. Well... in case of... no, well, no I wouldn't look at it this way.

Kerner: At the beginning you do a so called "auditing", there's the word "listening" contained in there somehow. What is this "auditing" about?

Nordhausen: Well, the auditing isn't placed at the beginning. At the beginning there are, expamle given, communication courses, in which they state: You learn to communicate better here. Actually, you learn the exact opposite, to attack people, you learn for example to scream at ashtrays, these proceedings actually turn you into a human being, that is not supposed to be human anymore. This means, you are only supposed to function well, to become like a robot, to get rid of your core. That's it.

Kerner: You learn to scream at ashtrays in order to scream at people as a next step?

Nordhausen: Yes, that's exactly what it is about. Mr. Handl certainly has experienced this himself and also done this himself. It's part of the scientologic program. Only later does auditing come into the picture. The auditing is the actual brainwashing in Scientology, where the person is shaped to a new way of thinking, new types of concepts etc. Let me say something really quickly in regards to the discussion about "religion" as my neighbour talked about it. Something being a religion doesn't necessarily imply that something is good. Well, there is religion... in past times, or it's still in existence, there were temple sacrifices. There is temple prostitution, burning of widows. And I think there is no controversy that Al Qaida or, let's take the califate state as an exapmle, that it is a religious organization. And still it was banned. And exactly the same is possible with Scientology.


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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 03:23:33 AM »

                                  PART TWO

Beckstein: The philosophy indeed doesn't state that man is a self-determined, free being, which may develop itself and which may decide for themselves, but eventually man is a special machine, which can be programmed and which has to be programmed. And, if it is programmed in an optimal way, then it is another man, a Clear, then he has abilities normal humans haven't,...

Kerner: And then he doesn't get a cold, right?

Beckstein: Well, whether, the cold, I don't want to give a statement on that. But, anyway, he has more abilities than others and he is the one, one has to strive for and these are the people who shape the future scientologist society and who doesn't have it, eventually doesn't have any rights.

Kerner: And all in all... the intent is to take over?

Beckstein: Of course. And it's not difficult to prove that there are attempts to gather influence on politics, influence on large economic organizations. And because of this there is a demand for the state to take action with the observation by the Office for Protection of the Constitution, so you can at least see what develops in that area. And maybe also to educate people on what expects them there.

Kerner: Mr. Handl, did you scream at ashtrays?

Handl: Of course. Well, basically it's like what Mr. Nordhausen already alluded to, especially this communication course, which happens at the beginning and actually sounds incredibly harmless, it serves to condition the individual, which means you are being drilled -literally- because you have to imagine: I didn't just scream at an ashtray, I did it for hours.

Kerner: What do you scream then?

Handl: Stand up, sit down.

Kerner: But... the ashtray.

Handl: Of course no ashtray can do that, even Scientology knows that much, so you help him. But, this isn't simply about, how to put it, the effect of ridicule, so you can say: Oh, look there's someone saying "Get up, sit down!" at an ashtray, but when you have done this for hours... well, afterwards I went with a friend -like people in Vienna like to do- for a coffee, and he told me about something, which I wasn't especially fond of hearing and then I told him to stop speaking in a way that made him turn completely pale. And that is what is being trained with these excercises. This means that Scientologists are basically turned extremely to the direction of doing something with other people against their will. Well, you may compare it a bit to, everyone has seen this one time or the other, you may compare it to the training of an american GI, which is, in comparison, outright soft.

Kerner: You mean when military talk becomes a little more sturdy.

Handl: Exactly.

Kerner: Mr. Mattheis, as part of a journalistic self-experiment at Scientology you have ,well, people say "infiltrated" let's put it a little less spectacular: you took part in it. How did you protect yourself beforehand, so that you would not end up in the clutches anyway and maybe say on the 9th day: "Oh, I think I'm going to stay here."

Mattheis: This was simply due to the fact that I wanted to write about it. This created a sort of distance to what I went through each day. In addition to this, I talked with friends about my experiences every day. Most of the time that was so crazy, that everyone laughed and so I had to laugh myself too.

Kerner: So, that danger wasn't there, actually?

Mattheis: I didn't actually sense it, no.

Kerner: And you considered it a journalistic self-experiment?

Mattheis: Just that. Back then I was still at the journalism school and we produced a graduate magazine, and its topic was "Mistakes" and I just wanted to consciously make a mistake and so I said: "Ok, I'll just go to Scientology for 10 days"

Kerner: This happened in Munich, didn't it?

Mattheis: It was in Munich, right.

Kerner: Would you take us with you in there, again? You went in there and said: "Hello, my name is Mattheis. I'd like to join you." Or how does that work?

Mattheis: Yes, it's actually pretty much like that. Well, the central, the Dianetics centre in Munich, that's at the M?nchner Freiheit in Schwabing, that's a very central place. Well, I went in there, said "I'm interested in it" and... then it went relatively quickly. There was a friendly young man at the entrance and then we sat together in front of this e-meter, did this test and then I also watched a DVD about L. Ron Hubbard, this took about 45 minutes, that was some sort of recruitment video.

Kerner: Now that you mention the "e-meter", we got it here of course, soon we'll look really close at what happens with it and what is the background of this story, Mr. Handl will be able to explain this to us in detail. Maybe you could tell us one more time: So the people were very friendly to you.

Mattheis: Hm-mh. [agreement]

Kerner: And they said: "Hey, that's great that a young person comes along and is interested". You did feel good, at least on that one level.

Mattheis: Well, it's a little too much to say I felt good, in part it is, there always was something weird about it (Kerner: Hm-mh [agreement]), but like I said, people were very nice, very open, actually all those that I met there.

Kerner: Hm-mh. [agreement] And what was the result as you sat there at this e-meter?

Mattheis: Hm, it's difficult to talk about "results", well, the theory is that the Scientologists are able to locate traumatic experiences which are stored in the unconscious and this happens when you grab these diodes that are in front of you...

Kerner: These?

Mattheis: Exactly, and you use both your hands...

Kerner: Sort of like two cans of "Red Bull"

Mattheis: Yeah, exactly.

Kerner: By the way, there's nothing in there either.

Handl: No gulp.

Kerner: Sure.

Mattheis: Then I was asked some questions and there is a sort of needle at the e-meter and it reacts to certain answers.

Kerner: That's how you put it up, right?

Nordhausen: What's important, only the guy who interrogates you can see that. So the guy who has the cans in his hands, doesn't see what's happening there.

Kerner: Sure, but we're completely open here. Everyone can see everything here, after all we got nothing to hide. So this is such an e-meter. Is this a very complicated technical device?

Handl: I would say: No. Well, actually it was developed at the end of the 19th century, I think by some guy named Eindhoven or something similar. It's a skin resistance measurement device, it measures changes in the skin resistance. At the beginning of the 20th century C.G. Jung did experiments with it as well, but he pretty much got rid of it, because he found ot that there's no results from this, right? At the beginning of the 1950s it was sort of re-discovered by [Warney Mettison], he used it as a party device and he sort of used it for amusement, you could play some little games with it, however, like I said, it wasn't important to him what the results were. The decisive part about the entire thing for L. Ron Hubbard was that it is incredibly spectacular.

Kerner: Oh, really.

Handl: And that's, when you look at it, especially in a world that is relatively faithful when it comes to technology, that's incredibly impressive when someone acts very secretive, and Scientology has created a huge conception of interpretation around it. (Kerner: Ok.) And I have to state one thing right at the start: L. Ron Hubbard stated already at the beginning of the 1960s: "The e-meter never lies". This means, what the e-meter says is the truth. To explain it in a very simplified fashion: If the needle, that is on there, goes to the right, then the e-meter says: Yes, there is something. If it goes to the left, then no. This means, if I was to ask you: "Are you actually a woman?" and you answer with all of your conviction: "No, of course not!"...

Kerner: I would have said "How do you know about that?"

Handl: Or whatever you say, it doesn't matter at all. If the e-meter says: "Yes he is"

Kerner: Then I'm a woman.

Handl: Then you're a woman.

Kerner: yeah, ok.

Handl: No chance.

Kerner: If you turn the device on, does it do anything, do I feel a little electrical current or what?

Handl: Nope, nothing happens.

Kerner: Would you... you've done it often enough... how often did you do such a thing, sitting at the e-meter with people, on the Scientologists' side?

Handl: Well, I would say, that was already in the 70s that it happened more often, i.e. for hours, often. And from my point of view the most important part is, that the other person has to stay and wait, which message he's going to receive from me.

Kerner: Could you do this with me? We don't know each other, I'm no Scientologist either, I just would like to know what goes on there. So ask me any question, I'll answer, maybe truthful.

Handl: This is basically a very simple procedure. You ask the other person questions....

Kerner: Is it on already?

Handl: You would have to plug it in. So we're only going to do it almost in the right way. It basically goes like this: There are prepared lists. The most despicable of the entire affair are the so called security checks, this means you get asked questions such as: "How often do you think about beautiful women each day?" And of course you are going to say, especially while on TV: "Well, I don't at all."

Kerner: But I do, I do, I do! I do, I do, I do. Yes, of course. Look at the audience here, I'm sorry, but we're only men here, you have to look at the audience once in a while. (Applause) So I would say: "Yes, from time to time."

Handl: Good. Now of course you look at the e-meter and it says: "Ok, see, there's something." E-meter says yes. Then let's investigate this thing a bit deeper: How do you think of the ladies? Could you say something about this?

Kerner: Yeah, most of the times I'm thinking of the heads, that may be boring, I also think of my wife. Or is this unspectacular.

Handl: No, no, you may do this, sure.

Kerner: But I also look for example at the audience and there are some very attractive people there.

Handl: Ok, it's bad luck for you, the e-meter says again: "Yes, there's still more"

Kerner: Oh.

Handl: This means the Scientologist would now go about saying: Ok, you have to go into a little more detail: What exactly are you thinking in such cases, example given about your wife. What are you imagining? Tell me everything you like.

Kerner: Then I say, she got great hair and I imagine how my hand is running through her hair and how I'm kissing her.

Handl: Well, the e-meter still isn't happy, or the Scientologist, let's put it rather that way. And he says: Ok, a little more detail.

Kerner: Then I'm going to sit here for hours...

Handl: may be printed in any newspaper.

Kerner: Exactly. So you know a lot about me within a short span of time. Why do you want to know this and how can you make use of it? What does it do to you, that you know that I'm running my fingers through my wife's hair?

Handl: Exactly. That's the trick with this entire thing. It means that Scientology creates the transparent human. This means that, as long as you are in Scientology, nothing happens. I would say, there is a mountain of such a height about me. And there are a lot of Scientologists that have even taller mountains. As long as someone is in Scientology, nothing happens. But when someone leaves Scientology then people look into these mountains of files in order to -example given, you won't be angry that I say this- if I know about you that you think this or that in regards to sexuality or women, then it will be used against you.

Kerner: It's being published, told to my wife...

Handl: it's being spread and on and on and on. That's what Scientology is actually using these data for.

Kerner: Did you do such things as well and were you responsible for them happening as the head of Scientology in Austria?

Handl: I myself didn't do it, but I've experienced it often enough, that in my area so to speak, such things happened and it happened to myself after I left. It wasn't that "heavy", because well you know, in principle I had been a good boy, you know, Austrians... but I know about others in whose cases that, which has been found out about them, is being used against that person, in a targeted manner.

Kerner: To be honest, we don't want to take this too seriously, because this sounds as if something actually would happen here. Well, the device had not been turned on.

Handl: No, no, exactly, this has to be added.

Kerner: So it wasn't turned on, but in all honesty, my trust to this box is relatively limited. Mr. Willms, do you find something like this interesting, do you believe that something may be measured with it? Is this of interest for you as a religious scientist?

Willms: As a "religious device", if you'd like to call it that, or as a technology, it is very interesting, but not with regards to what it actually shows in the end. It is simply an indication that Scientology is comparatively close to modern society, because they use such technical instruments and don't run around with a magic stick anymore or with a divining-rod.

Kerner: Well, but the divining-rod isn't widely in use e.g. in our christian churches either, if I may say so. People wear crosses there and...

Beckstein: But, with regards to clearly more progressive technology, something similar exists in the area of the lie-detector, when you measure humidity during a question or change of pulse or heartbeat and by this you can draw conclusions, whether someone is nervous...

Kerner: changing emotions...

Beckstein: It's something similar to that, but in a very simple form.

Kerner: Ok. But this box is today in use worldwide. This is the E-Meter, this is the original- there is no other device, there's nothing that is more current, that's it. Wait a moment, Mr. Handl, because I just would like to get to a point now, because in the audience is our guest Ingo Heinemann from the federal association for cult advise. Mr. Heinemann, many years ago you saw to it that a scientific inquiry of this box took place. I'm going to open it. Could you tell us about the results of this scientific examination and who did this scientific examination?

Heinemann: Yes, that was done back then by the psychological institute of the University of T?bingen, which examined it with regards to technical and psychological considerations. With regards to technical considerations they found out that it may be very dangerous -however this refered to the model that was in use back then- also that it is quiet primitive and with regards to its effect they established that it does not do what it is supposedly able to do at all. With regards to the whole thing you have to add one remark as a matter of course: You yourself may construct this box, including its content, at a price of 20 euros, when it's constructed professionally the costs may be at 100 Euros and it was recently sold at a price, if I remember correctly, of about 6500 Euros.

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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 03:27:52 AM »

                                    PART THREE

Nordhausen: More expensive. 8500.

Kerner: By now the cost is at 8000.

Nordhausen: The luxury version.

Heinemann: So there are crazy costs, already from this it can be concluded that something is wrong with it.


Kerner: But technically speaking. Well, this can't do anything basically, can it? ... Actually it can't do anything technically, it looks like, I'm not a technician, so I can only say, there are a few wires, it might look like a transistor radio from the early 70s, but...

Heinemann: It can only measure the voltage at the skin surface, but it can't register... "to measure" is the wrong term anyway in this context, it may register, well it simply shows movement of the needle. The Scientologists claim, that this needle movement means, depending on the question, either "yes" or "no" as an answer. And this is exactly, said the psychological institute of the University of T?bingen, and this is exactly what it does not do. And so the entire system that Scientology has built onto that falls into pieces, because this e-meter is supposed to help locating negative impressions in the soul -well, they call them engrams- and then they are supposed to go away by finding them, that's why there are all the expenses, right? And that's why there are all these expensive procedures. It can't do any of this.

Kerner: Ok, it is a cheap box that is being sold at an extremely over-expensive cost and it obviously, at least with regards to technical considerations, doesn't implement any function, at least not the function that is being promised. Did you expect this, Mr. Mattheis, when you took a seat at it, at the other side?

Mattheis: Well, I didn't get the feeling that it did impress me in any way due to excellent performance. It was more of a... so I saw a needle, which was moving around.

Kerner: And the questions were like Mr. Handl said?

Mattheis: Yes, similar. Yes.

Kerner: So this means, that it turned relatively quickly to personal issues, to private and intimate topics?

Mattheis: ...Yes.

Nordhausen: By the way, skilled Scientologists are able to manipulate the device. You can, by pressing the cans harder or less hard, influence the needle, Mr. Handl will be able to confirm this. The former, one of the top ex-members in Germany has told me this, Gunter Tr?ger, and he was that good in it... and more recently another ex-member, Mr. Markert, he also mentioned that you may well be able to manipulate this, if you've been long enough in Scientology and if you've basically seen through the system to such an extent that you may even use it to your own ends.

Kerner: You also were shown these videos by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology. Did you feel moved by this in any way or did you rather consider it ridiculous?

Mattheis: Me, personally, not at all, because the entire time it was [only] about being more efficient, more diligent, not to be sick any more, to be resistent to stress. So all of this was very, very much focused on performance. There was nothing, let's say, nice or life- well this sounds as if I was opposed to performance, that's not what I want to say, all of it simply was, it was based on such a concept of efficiency in the end.

Kerner: And so you could quickly recognize what it was. We also did see pictures from these videos at the beginning. Did you ever experience the feeling to lose control over yourself?

Mattheis: Well, the only time when I did feel a bit precarious was actually during this auditing. I had this actually before the communication course took place, but this was some sort of test-auditing, I think the purpose was also to show to me what it was like. And that was actually a bit uncanny.

Kerner: Because of what? What happened there?

Mattheis: Hm, one reason for it was that I went into the second floor of the building together with a Scientologist - so I didn't know where we were going to and I also didn't know what happened to me - and then we sat down in a very small room and then she also locked the door. I didn't know why, what's the purpose of also locking the door, and then she asked me to close my eyes and then I was supposed to talk about an experience, which somehow brought up emotions in me. To be frank I was a little anxious and thought to myself "Rather take an event, which isn't that grave" and so I talked about my exam for my driver's license and then I had to, with my eyes closed, I don't know, maybe eight times, I had to recount my exam for the driver's license. This took two hours and this is actually a demanding experience.

Handl: (inaudible)

Kerner: Well, ok, but it is the principle. Why did he have to recount his driver's- I hope you did pass? This just as an aside.

Mattheis: No, I failed! (Kerner: Ah ok) That's why it was a...

Kerner: Yes ok.

Handl: That's why it was a traumatic event.

Kerner: That's why it was traumatic. But what is the meaning of recounting the driver's license exam...

Handl: If you look at the entire story, maybe there is a need to explain a term that was already mentioned, also by Mr. Mattheis: Dianetics is virtually the second brand by Scientology, Scientology has a two-brand strategy and basically has its origins in hypnosis. This means the original system of 1950 was a hypnosis procedure and what is achieved by such behaviour, when you go back to traumatic events: You push someone into something negative. And this means, everyone, I mean if I was to go and take any given person and push him into a negative event in his life and keep him there, then he is at my disposal. And this is, if you want to look at it this way, the main meaning and purpose of this exercise.

Kerner: This doesn't sound very humanitarian and kind.

Handl: In my opinion there is nothing humanitarian or kind about Scientology at all.

Kerner: Did you, as a person, experience changes while being there?

Handl: Yes, I only can... maybe you have to put it this way: I had a lover in my youth, when I was 18, 19 I knew her before Scientology, when I was 20 I joined Scientology and I saw this lady 30 years afterwards again, met with her again and what she realized when she faced me: She was completely knocked off her feet, well she did know that people of course do change in the course of 30 years, but the way in which I had changed, namely lacking feeling, just flaunting around arrogantly, commenting on everything, knowing everything better than all the others. Well she explained this to me in several conversations and she was literally knocked off her feet, realizing what happened to me.

Kerner: Quickly after your entry into the organization, after 5 or 6 years, you became a leading figure within the austrian organization of Scientology and later you also became its head. What were your qualifications for this post? Were you a hardliner, a real hardcore Scientologist?

Handl: Well, even if that's hard for me and even if I don't, how to say it, I'm not proud of it, but I apparently had abilities, which were activated by Scientology. This means, in order to not leave it abstract like that, what I was pretty good at was to "deal" with people, as they say: "leadership", so I had leadership, a certain charisma, and Scientology is incredibly good at, when it comes to policies of employment, well you don't have to serve for years to slowly ascend, but when someone is recognized, when his qualities are being recognized he gets upwards very quickly, but please don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely not proud of having done this.

Kerner: But in the beginning you also paid for the courses?

Handl: Only the first two courses.

Kerner: What did they cost?

Handl: That was relatively cheap, the communication course took -if you calculate it to that currency- not even 100 euros. In Scientology there are two alternatives: The first one, if someone has enough money then he is continued to be milked so to speak and the second variation: If someone has no money then he may become a staff member and gets the courses and the auditing for free.

Kerner: And doesn't get a loan as a staff member or only a little?

Handl: Yes, you put that right, well Scientologists do get, staff members do get a loan, I would put it anywhere between 30 and 40 euros per week, so actually they get no loan, right?

Kerner: Later on, you also worked under these conditions?

Handl: Yes.

Kerner: So you gave all your work force for virtually no money.

Handl: Yes. And you have to look at it that way, a staff member at Scientology...

Kerner: How did you live? How did you pay your appartment and your car, your...

Handl: Either you have a second job or someone who cares for your expenses. And so I had, if you'd like to put it that way, my second job was, I sold countless of those e-meters example given, I sold them to other Scientologists. Then you get between 5 or 15% provision for that, which you sell further.

Kerner: Hm-mh [affirmative]. There's a lot of incoming money, 100 euros is considered a cheap course, it keeps getting more expensive, you say that people with money are also being "milked" there, which means talked into taking courses, which they possibly don't need or don't even want, but you need the money. Where does this money actually go?

Nordhausen: Well, this is of course one of the key questions when it comes to Scientology, what happens with the money. And luckily we're able today to say more about this than circa ten years ago, because by now we know from court proceedings and example given by the work of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution -the organization is also under investigation by the interior intelligence agencies in France and Belgium- and because of this we know example given that between 1988 and 91 around 1.4 billion dollars went to the USA, only from Europe. If you now consider that the number of Scientologists in Europe is far below the number of Scientologists in the USA, then you get pretty high numbers and you're going to have to assume that the amount of money that Scientology states to the american IRS are way too low and... where does the money go to? By now, there are also relatively certain informations on this topic by now, originating from former high-ranking Scientologists. A huge part of the money ends on accounts in Liechtenstein, in Cyprus, in Switzerland and also in several other tax havens.

Kerner: So it is being kept?

Nordhausen: It is being kept and apparently they've also realized that you, Scientology -the comparison with the mafia isn't completely inappropriate after all- Scientology has a huge need to "launder" money so to speak, the incoming money from America for example or incoming money in general and so you build these extraordinarily expansive or you buy these extraordinarily expansive buildings in Europe since approximately five years ago. In Belgium, Brussels the price was at 31 millions, in London 20 million, in Hamburg 20 million and so on.

Kerner: Ok. So, the money goes into buildings (Nordhausen: For example.), mainly because they believe that's the best way to earn money, not only buildings for their own use, but also such that they hire further, whatever. Houses, business so to speak. One of the richest and maybe also one of the most influential Scientologists is the american actor Tom Cruise. In any event he is the most famous Scientologist in the world. His film "Operation Valkyrie" has just started in german movie theaters, it's quite successful. There he acts the part of german hero and resistance fighter Claus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg. We got a few pictures.

[Report:] Tom Cruise. Magnet for income and public Scientologist. Currently he is on promotion tour for his current film. He even gets the "Bambi for Courage" for "Operation Valkyrie". To what extent Tom Cruise has taken in Scientology's teachings can be seen in the internet:

Cruise: Damn, there is nothing better than going out there and fighting the fight and suddenly you see: Pft, things are better... I wanna know that I've done everything I could, everyday... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

During the shooting of the film, time and again his role in Scientology is discussed in public. May a leading Scientologist act the part of Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg, resistance fighter in Nazi Germany?
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 09:57:00 AM »

The Great Pretender
Turori Chapman is an amazing impersonator.  So good, she has succeeded in passing herself off as a doctor, a nurse, a hospital counsellor, an air hostess, a television reporter, even a police officer. How did she get away with it? And why did she do it? It turns out Turori has been a great pretender ever since she was a boy. 60 Minutes Reporter Alison Horwood investigates.

Tonight 18th May Monday 7:30 pm TV3

Have been told on good authority this lady is an ex scio Auckland Staff member.
Photo may be available.

Also just got an email from a friend in Germany.
Major documentary on German TV about our favorite cult.

Uwe Stockenbrook`s brother, Markus, was interviewed.
Search these forums if you don`t know the Uwe Stuckenbrook story.

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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 08:32:28 AM »

Link to a posting about the recent German TV documentary...
plus the documentary itself.
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2009, 09:11:43 AM »

Plenty to see on youtube .

Just searched there for "Scientology France Trial"
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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2009, 05:37:28 PM »

French documentary with Subtitles
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2010, 05:39:54 PM »

             Fourth Season Boxed Set Showcases Swan Song for Ugly Betty

DVD Review: Ugly Betty: The Complete Fourth and Final Season
by Robert Bell
Published: August 17, 2010

In this ,the fourth and final season of television's most colourful hour-long, Ugly Betty, the Gay and Latina brigade tackle Scientology, alcoholism, unexpected pregnancy and early adolescent homosexual desires. Essentially, it’s the sort of stuff that terrifies Rightwing thinkers, save the bashing of Scientology, which, ironically, may have been the jab that cut Betty’s lifespan short.

And while it’s sad to see our overly enthusiastic, uncoordinated and frequently clashing heroine go, four years is a solid run for a network series—especially one that appeals primarily to gays and visible minorities. Since the news of the cancellation came early in the season, the creative team had reasonable opportunity to wrap up the many storylines, finding Hilda (Ana Ortiz) a husband and Betty (America Ferrera) making strides towards the dreams she put on hiatus.

When the season starts, Betty is pining over her ex-boyfriend Matt (Daniel Eric Gold), who, incidentally, is also Betty’s boss at her new Junior Editor gig, making work somewhat challenging. Meanwhile, Wilhelmina (Vanessa Williams) struggles to cover up a murder committed by her daughter, as she sneaks around with her presumed dead lover Connor (Grant Bowler).

Daniel (Eric Mabius) is still dealing with the death of Molly, making him susceptible to a crazed cult that tries to cut him off from his loved ones. Of course, Betty and his mother Claire (Judith Light) will have nothing of it, going toe-to-toe with the religious nuts so that Daniel can go back to moping about his leadership insecurities and aging physique.

Since Betty has long since bonded with resident Mode meanies Mark (Michael Urie) and Amanda (Becki Newton), the thread here is Mark’s resentment of Betty’s new job and Amanda’s career trajectory woes. But this doesn’t stop Mark from acting as a sounding board for Betty’s gay nephew Justin (Mark Indelicato), as he deals with the prospect of coming out of the closet.

Not much about the template has changed since the first season, with the same melodramatic writing, exaggerated drama and inappropriate humour making for camp entertainment at its mainstream best. From wild neon wardrobe choices to slightly racist jokes about Betty’s cuisine tastes, there is constantly something to look at or listen to, even if the actual plot is often so contrived and predictable (intentionally so, to an extent) that it’s hard not to roll your eyes.

Perhaps it’s even a blessing that the show ended when it did, not suffering much deterioration in quality, still propelling the characters to their overly protracted destinations.

The 4-disc DVD set doesn’t include much in the way of cast sentimentality, featuring only one commentary track with Michael Urie and Mark Indelicato on the episode where Justin has his first gay kiss, which could suggest feelings of hostility or, more likely, a lack of funding for such things on the part of the studio.

Still, there are some deleted scenes along with a Bahamas supplement, wherein Mark and Amanda ask a sea lion where the rest of the cast is. Vanessa Williams and Judith Light make sushi as well. It’s awkward and poorly assembled.

There are also webisodes with Mark and Amanda, where they toss out indecipherable pop culture slang and learn that the security guys like to watch them on workplace cameras after hours at Mode. More entertaining is the gag reel where just about every cast member either flubs their lines or falls flat on their ass.
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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2010, 12:32:31 AM »

                                      Scientology: The Ex Files

Monday September 27 at 10 pm ET/PT & Sunday October 3 at 8 pm ET on CBC News Network

Behind Scientology's high celebrity profile lies an organization on its knees. In this powerful documentary and jaw-dropping investigation, a band of former elite members emerge from the secretive religion to allege extreme cruelty, slave labour and financial greed.

"It may have a philosophy that's religious, but it's strictly business", says former scientologist Joe Reaiche. Joining at the age of 19, Joe advanced quickly through the mysterious levels of learning at the heart of Scientology. At each level he was asked for a fee, which would eventually amount to approximately $235,000. When Joe voiced his doubts about the church, he was expelled, and all communication with his wife and children cut off.

"Only a mad man says he isn't mad", grins L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the church of Scientology, in some rare archive footage. At the time, Hubbard was in trouble with authorities all over the world, and he had fled to the high seas with his band of devoted followers. According to Hana, an early member of the Church, conditions on-board were "abominable", and punishments for breaking the church's strict rules were extreme: "people were thrown overboard - hands and feet bound and blindfolded".

Hubbard's culture of unwavering obedience and extreme discipline survived his own passing in 1986. Joe describes how a "religious retreat", he was sent to for sloppy work, was nothing less than a "slave camp". "Members who are failing or incapable of performing well can be given the voluntary opportunity for a period of reflection, rehabilitation, redemption", defends Tommy Davis. Of Joe's separation from his family, Tommy is less glib: "any church has a right to not welcome in its ranks those who mean the church harm."

There's a growing number of ex-members who the church now views in this suspicious manner, many of whom claim to be dogged by private investigators. "My lawsuit covers human trafficking, labour law violations and forced abortions", says Claire. She joined the church's 'Sea Org' at just 16 years old, earning $22 a week and sleeping in a chair. When she fell pregnant with her husband Mark, the church told her: "'They're going to ask you 'do you want an abortion. You're to say yes'". Claire is one of forty women who've made this allegation, which the church vehemently denies.
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 07:49:29 PM »

                   My Story BBC1 Tues 28 Sept.

My Story is a 5-part true series. The description of this week's one is as follows:

"Overcoming Adversity" Tonight's tales are of people who triumphed over adversity, including a woman who suffered years of neglect at an industrial school and a family who struggled to break free from a sect.

Could this sect be Scientology I wonder? Panorama The Secrets of Scientology is on the same evening one and half hours earlier.

I`ll keep ya`ll posted.
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2010, 05:59:44 PM »

   SCIENTOLOGY, THE EX-FILES  to screen in Canada

Monday, September 27 at 10 pm E.S.T. (North America) & Sunday October 3 at 8 pm, E.S.T. on the CBC News Network; the program called "The Passionate Eye" airs "SCIENTOLOGY, THE EX-FILES"

This was originally produced by the ABC and broadcast as an episode of 4 Corners.

"Every time Scientology expands, it gets attacked."
Every time the truth about Scientology gets out,
they consider it an attack !!!

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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2010, 10:53:39 AM »

             Ex Scio interviewed on TV in France. 2 parts.

Testimony of Mylène Pillorget, who spent 21 years in the cult of scientology. On radio France Culture, 2008, by Sonia Kronlund. After she left she couldn't speak to her chidren.
Mylène died in 2010. Her children didn't come at her funeral.

Part one
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2010, 06:27:13 PM »

                   Bill Maher; Glenn Beck like L. Ron Hubbard

And don`t forget Bill Mayer`s movie "Religulous is still out there.

Here is the trailer
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2010, 07:45:11 PM »

   2 new Scn commercials have aired on NBC's "Entertainment Tonite" nation-wide broadcast in the US.

Read this. Watch the video.
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2010, 08:19:21 PM »

  A & E Investigates Scientology.
This is a two hour documentary from 1998.
Here is part one (Six and a half minutes)

A&E "Investigative Reports" Scientology - Part 1a
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